5 hoursTl;dr
USA:
- Terrible drivers
- Big ass trucks
- Minor punishments
- No sidewalks
- Texting while driving
Europe:
- Reasonably decent drivers
- Moderately big vehicles
- More or less severe punishments (still too low)
- Sidewalks everywhere
- Texting while driving
- benjirenji@slrpnk.netEnglish3 hours
Road design also matters. European roads with heavy pedestrian traffic are often too narrow for speeding or have obstacles. American roads often look like a high way and only the signaling may suggest otherwise.
- prole@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish4 hours
Is there any evidence that Europeans are better drivers than Americans? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’ve just never seen any kind of data about that.
Also I’m not sure where you got the idea that the US doesn’t have sidewalks.
Well I did some checking. Lots of what Google says nowadays in the first answers is hallucination though so feel free to correct if you know better.
But “in a vast majority of states” as long as you’re over 18, all you need to do is walk into a DMV and pass a “knowledge test” and a vision test. Then you get a learner’s permit. Sure, you’re not allowed to drive solo with one, but the supervisor just needs to be an adult with a license (and “capable of driving the vehicle” ie “sober and alert” but eh drunk driving laws in the US are a whole other mess, damn Murica just give your cops breathalysers. here they sell disposable ones at every register in supermarkets).
In most states you can get that at 16 afaik.
Here in Finland, when I went to driving school, it lasted weeks. You have to sit theory lessons, risk lessons, and then do driving with an instructor for a dozen hours or so and then you get to go take a driving test and if you pass, you’ll get a license.
In the US they usually don’t even require parallel parking.
I had to parallel park in a steep hill and then hill start from there while not stalling the engine.
And after that, you get your phase 1 driving license. It gets taken away easier for fines, you can have like 2 in a year or 3 in 2 years iirc. I mean, you can’t. You can have 1 in a year or 2 in 2 years but 2 in one year or 3 in two years iirc and you get your license revoked and have to do a driving test all over again.
Then when you’ve had your phase 1 license for at least 1.5 years and have completed both night driving training and slippery driving training (you get taken to a rally track with hills and bends and it’s all covered in either water and ice or in the summer soap and oil and water) then you can have your permanent license.
So you know, by the idea that more training and higher requirements and harder to pass driving tests would mean better drivers unless there’s a maaaasssive disparity in the populations and Americans are just naturally so much better drivers that they compensate for the difference training makes. Which… they aren’t, let’s be honest.
Oh and most cars are manual. I feel like saying that a majority of Americans wouldn’t even know how to drive a manual probably isn’t a controversial statement, right? You’re allowed to go through driving school with automats but then you won’t be allowed to drive manual cars.
Also, several different classes of vehicles and licences. At 15 you get M class, for moped or “moped-cars” (fucking rich kids, pappa betalar) at 16 you can get a A1, that’s bikes up to 125cc and 11kw, then at 18 you can go for B which is regular cars, and nowadays I think only C1, but I did C. That’s heavy good vehicles, large “semitrucks”. C1 is smaller, lighter, semitrucks, they sort of split the class for some reason.
Most of the American “trucks” the insane sized pickups would probably C1 if not C.
If you want trailers then you have to also do E for them, and that’s for each (but not bikes obvs) so for instance you can have ABEC which would allow you to drive a large trailer behind a regular car, but not a massive one behind a semitruck. (You can have a small one with C, just like you can have a small regular trailer or a camper with B if their mass is low enough). But to have full semitruck+trailer you’d need CE. Then there’s also D which is buses. So you could have ABECEDE. (My dad had that I think.) A1 upgrades to a and A with “driving experience” which is just counted in years since you got the license, even if you didn’t drive for that time. So if you drive A1 license at 16 you get a-license at 18 and A at 20. Lowercase a is bikes up to 600cc and 25kw (but people often remove the limits from it being 25, but will be very costly if you get caught, for insurance).
TLDR the requirements for a driving license in the US are about the same as for a moped license here in Finland, and the requirements for a Commercial Driving License in the US are about the same as those here for a regular license.
Sooo… yeah. I think we can infer.
Also, there’s these:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0386111211000033
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12544-014-0131-7
Also I’m not sure where you got the idea that the US doesn’t have sidewalks.
I think they mean “curbs” actually. Or curbed sidewalks in general. And even if they don’t, I’ve heard from lots of Americans how simply some places aren’t walkable. As in there is literally no sidewalk, and you can’t step off the road, as there’s no “right to roam” in the US so someone could technically just shoot you for trespassing in the worst case, forcing you to practically walk on the road, which is being driven by massive and unsafe SUVs. SUV’s which wouldn’t care about most European curbs probably, having such large tires. But most average sized cars do.
- 46 minutes
That was a super long response and I am not OP but I have heard that you can learn to drive with a private tutor in France, I think it was because they need to educate better drivers.
Oh you can do that in Finland as well. You just need to have an extra brake pedal installed on the passenger side, for emergency braking. You also need an extra mirror, and a permit to teach. The requirements for a permit to teach are nominal, it’s just that you have at least 5 years experience with the class of vehicles you’re teaching (as you could teach a BE as well for instance, not talking about installing extra brake pedals on motorbikes lol), you’re at least 25 years of age and have a “clean driving record”. I’m not sure what disqualifies one with the record. I think it’s probably somewhat subjective. Like a DUI definitely disqualifies you, but some minor speeding prolly won’t.
It’s been increasing a lot here. Like when I learned to drive I knew of no-one in my age or near it who’d done it. But my sister is 15 years younger and when she did it my stepdad (her dad, she’s my half-sibling) taught her. It’s doubled since 2014.
And I think the driving schools have less theory and driving lessons as well, we had tons. Probably dropped it so that it’s faster for the schools to get more people in and out. Ie capitalism loosening safety regulations in the name of profit. Thanks, right-wing government of however long ago it was! ^(/s)
- nieminen@lemmy.worldEnglish3 hours
The sidewalks thing I have personal anecdotal evidence for. I have lived in MANY areas, including my current city, where there are very few sidewalks outside the main street.
- CADmonkey@lemmy.worldEnglish2 hours
Lots of cities don’t have sidewalks or dont have very many. Tulsa is a good example.
- kevinsky@feddit.nlEnglish3 hours
I have no real data on whether it’s true or not or what “better driver” even means but there’s some differences in car life i’m sure have some kind of an effect.
Driver’s license aquisition here is more involved and guided. At least in the Netherlands things like having a family member teach you drive for example is not a thing. You have to take out classes with a professional driving school in a car fitted with dual pedals and a professional instructor. Most people take 35 to 45 of those lessons to pass the practical test, which is also fairly ruthless afaik.
There’s also way less space and lots of traffic on fairly skinny roads, lots of different kinds of traffic too like way more pedestrians, cyclists swirving around all over the place, and public transport with different rules around things like right of way (particularly trams). US likes big wide roads, laid out in grids, with not really all that much in terms of other variables to take into account outside of other motorists due to the overwhelming bias towards car ownership.
Car driving is way more of a optional choice here. Especially in the west side of the country. Lots of people her are fine not having a driver’s license at all due to public transport covering all their needs.
Although i’m sure in terms of casualties there’s also other stuff that is relevant. Some of those pickup trucks blew over to here as of late and I think it’s wild something with such a limited visibility is legal. Especially here. I’m a big guy but the grille on one of those RAM truck is chest height for me, which in case of a head on collision means i’ll likely end up under it instead of on top of it.
- Stupidmanager@lemmy.worldEnglish4 hours
Casual observer here but i noticed a significant drop in cars in europe. People walk or mass transit. I’m sure there are stats for it but in a city where walking is 1st, people just pay attention more. Americans… will drive 2 blocks to the store and need to text BFF Jane about the latest tictok
- 3 hours
Imfrastructure is the biggest factor. Car dependency makes for a lot of idiot drivers.
- 3 hours
There’s that, and statistics like
Metric:European Union (Avg)/United States
Road deaths per million people: ca. 44 / ca. 125–150
Driver Training: Rigorous & Expensive/Relatively easy/basic
Primary Safety Focus:Systemic (Traffic Calming)/Personal (Vehicle Size/Safety)
- BackgrndNoize@lemmy.worldEnglish6 hours
Probably because those massive gender affirming trucks are death machines for pedestrians
- Zink@programming.devEnglish5 hours
I wonder what the deaths per pedestrian mile stat is for America vs the rest of the world. I would expect it it be even more terrifying. Ouside cities I am used to pedestrians being an extremely rare sight unless in a parking lot.
- anon_8675309@lemmy.worldEnglish9 hours
Probably no one single cause. Bigger vehicles. Wider roads. More driving centric. Less give a shit about other people.
- Paper_Phrog@lemmy.worldEnglish10 hours
People DO get killed because of phone usage in other countries. It is a huge issue. There’s now even special cameras here for fining people that call. Unfortunately many people text and drive. I constantly see people look down their laps while driving.
- 10 hours
Lots of good reasons here on laws and larger vehicles in the US. One thing that seems to be missing:
Wider streets & roads, prevalence of stroads => faster driving speeds => more pedestrian deaths.
A lot of cities in Europe are much safer by design because of narrow streets that force drivers to slow down. Europe also has more real roads as opposed to stroads which are pervasive in the U.S.
- DeadDigger@lemmy.zipEnglish6 hours
Well european roads are mostly narrower because they were build 600 years ago
- BipolarSilence@lemmy.cafeEnglish21 hours
Ok so the thing is, when you get hit by small car you usually tend to roll over the top w some injuries. You can’t really do that when its a giant truck/SUV the height of you and you end up rolling under their BIGASS SUSPENDED VEHICLE
- shirro@aussie.zoneEnglish21 hours
There are very harsh fines for driving with a phone elsewhere. And smaller vehicles and better infra for pedestrians.
- Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish11 hours
From what I’m seeing here in Europe, the fines for driving with a phone are seldom applied and outside a handful of countries aren’t even that large.
Also infrastructure for pedestrians hasn’t actually improved significativelly in Europe since 2009 - the big difference in the quality of pedestrian infrastructure between Europe and the US comes all the way back from the 60s or even earlier, so it doens’t explain a change of trend on the US but not Europe in 2009.
I’m leaning more towards the “oversized light trucks are dangerous as fuck” theory since, well, they are and the trend to see more of those on the road hasn’t happened in Europe but it has in the US.
- Jiral@lemmy.worldEnglish10 hours
Regarding pedestrian infrastructure. That is just outright false, at least for Austria. Pedestrian infrastructure in big cities has improved substantially and even in rural regions many communities have made improvements. Many of these projects happened also after 2009.
That said, the rise of oversized trucks is likely the bigger factor here. When I was visiting the US in 2010, it was not half as bad as it appears to be now.
- Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish10 hours
I’ve lived in Britain, Germany and Portugal during the period since 2009 and saw no big improvements in pedestrian infrastructure beyond a few streets being closed to traffic and turned fully pedestrianised.
The biggest change I saw was improved infrastructure for cycling, rather than for pedestrians.
- Jiral@lemmy.worldEnglish10 hours
Paris and Vienna certainly had a lot going on in this regard since 2009. (Brussels too) I am not talking about the odd pedestrianisation.
A lot of streets have been redesigned, that has often benefitted both, pedestrians and cyclists and added more greenery and trees.
- Lovable Sidekick@lemmy.worldEnglish23 hours
I thought big trucks and SUVs were doing it - at least that’s what a different headline said.
- Art3mis@lemmy.worldEnglish19 hours
So a good guy with an SUV can stop a bad guy with a phone? I think im getting it
- Lovable Sidekick@lemmy.worldEnglish22 hours
Since it’s a US-only phenomenon, looking at vehicle types popular in the US seems like a good starting place, but that assumes phone use affects people’s awareness of their surroundings uniformly - I would want to confirm that by ruling out cultural differences between countries.
- Jiral@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Big Trucks and SUVs are much deadlier than proper cars in case of accidents. Pedestrian infrastructure does not exist in most parts of the US or is very dangerous to use and those parts of the US that do are often unaffordable for regular people to live in. People also do not expect pedestrians even if there is infrastructure of that kind. Roads in the US are designed to maximise the danger to pedestrians even if there is pedestrian infrastructure because of car first regulations …
- TigerAce@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
We have pedestrian friendly infrastructure and we don’t drive penis size compensating trucks. Cars close to pedestrians are forced to go slow and if they would swivel off the road, the curbs and other stuff like trees are there to stop cars before they hit anyone, or force the wheels away from the sidewalks to steer the car back on the road. So even when people are dumb enough to be on their phone, the risk of a fatal accident with a pedestrian is limited. Giant trucks just ram over and through everything, splashing any pedestrian in their path. Especially if there aren’t any sidewalks and cars are allowed to drive really fast. Contrary to the US we actually value human lives so we built our cities to be safe for bikes and pedestrians.
- 🌸𝓯𝓵𝓸𝔀𝓮𝓻🌸@sh.itjust.worksEnglish1 day
and cars are allowed to drive really fast
That was stated very plainly here. Cars are getting bigger and heavier. And pedestrians being killed equals weight of car multiplied with speed. Weight up, so speed down. Small roads everywhere now 30kph/20mph.
- Soulg@ani.socialEnglish1 day
All fair points and true, but those trucks are still a sizable minority on the road. I think the infrastructure and low speeds are the main reasons
- chuckleslord@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Include SUVs in your computation and rerun the numbers. Yes, the big fuck off trucks are still a minority, but they push everything bigger the bigger they get. And bigger is the only thing they’re getting.
I drive a MINI, bought it in 2018. Then, I was comfortably in the majority of car sizes (new minis are comfortable hatchbacks). Now, there’s maybe 10% of cars that I’m comparable to, everything else has windows with bottoms that are at or above my roofline.
- Kite@sh.itjust.worksEnglish1 day
I think the number of large trucks on the road is very dependent on location. I’m in the Deep South, and they are everywhere. I’m actually one of only two people at my job who don’t have a giant truck. The other is my boss. Coincidentally, we are also the only two women who work here. She’s got an older minivan, and my car is 15 years old. Oh wait, one guy drives his girlfriend’s Jeep. I forgot about him.
- TigerAce@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish23 hours
It’s a combination. And even though those trucks might be a minority on the road in the US, the percentage of those monstrosities is still more compared to in europe. Over here they are a rarity. I bet if you compare those percentages to the percentages of accidents with fatalities that you see a similarity.
- Zarxrax@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Yeah I’m pretty sure this is why https://vger.to/lemmy.today/post/55397665
- Fmstrat@lemmy.worldEnglish9 hours
Maybe, but it’s probably a lot more to do with infrastructure. European drivers are used to pedestrians being everywhere, North American’s aren’t.
It would be interesting to see a comparison between cities and rural locations.
Screenshot for compatibility reasons on fedi. So that it’s loud and fucking clear
https://lemmy.today/post/55397665
I wonder why voyager does this?
I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t use voyager, and find it to be off putting that voyager would share a link in such a way that is essentially an ad for itself.
I shared the direct link for the rest of us 🙂 it doesn’t seem that ! is needed anymore.
- 1 day
They are telling Voyager users how to modify that setting. We have options, but apparently the default is a Voyager specific link.
Interesting choice by Voyager. But it is nice that there are apps available for fediverse users who want them!
While Voyager is a nice app, that’s offputting for me as well. Just changed it! Glad I didn’t share a link yet.
Sorry to be like this, but what is this link?
I get redircted outside of my Lemmy App (because it is a 3rd party URL) and then get advertised a Lemmy client, which I don’t even like, only for its page to only show a preview and in order to actually view the linked post I have to open the original WebUI of the Lemmy instance linked on the advertising page of voyager?
And it got the balls to tell me that its the best experience?
What the fuck Voyager??
I think @Zarxrax@lemmy.world is using the rich text editor, this is a bug already fixed in the latest version. Voyager is supposed to unwrap vger.to links on paste.
- 9bananas@feddit.orgEnglish13 hours
seems to be an issue on your end:
also on voyager and it’s working as expected!
click link > opens post within voyager
maybe a settings issue or a bug?
Voyager made this website and probably added these URLs as supported links.
I am not on voyager, but on thunder and it does not work, since there links are not the standard share link. I tested using normal links in a comment and it works there.
So while in theory Thunder could add support for these Links, I really just whished that Voyager would stop advertising themselves whenever somebody shares a link with their client.
The actions of Voyager seem malicious; no other Lemmy (or mastodon client) that I know of does not directly link to the post in question and rather just advertises itself like an adfly page.
It’s a bug already fixed, vger.to links should always unwrap on paste into a comment or post!
- 9bananas@feddit.orgEnglish9 hours
oh, sry, i read that wrong!
yes, that’s a voyager link, although that should probably open in the browser version by default, since voyager, afaik, does have a web version…
fyi: it’s not malice, there’s actually a good reason for generating these links!
it’s so different instances can be shared through the same home instance, i.e.: so i can share a link from feddit.org with someone on lemmy.world, and they can still access it within the same client, through their own home instance without requiring a new login, etc.
it’s a limitation of lemmy and voyager offers a workaround ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That makes way more sense. I would question it, since my client (Thunder) manages the same without requiring to rewrite the URL.
- givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Kind of?
It’s not just that the outside of the vehicles are big.
The inside is too, so a lot of people can barely see over the dash on the best of days, so glancing down at a phone means taking their eyes fully off the road. In a sedan they’d at least maintain a periphery view of the road, which allows for unconscious sight and reactions.
Like how “daredevil blindness” is real and some people are blind but will duck if you throw a wrench at their head.
- bobs_monkey@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
The A pillars (the pillar between the windshield and driver/passenger door window) have gotten so massive due to airbag requirements that it blocks a significant view angle. It used to be that they were an inch wide.
- lemmysir@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
I’d rather have the airbag and have to move my head a bit to see than not have the bags. Surely driving instructors teach students that it is a blindspot of a sort and that you should keep it in mind, no?
- bobs_monkey@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
I’ll agree that its a good component to have. I couldn’t say about driving instructors, for me that was about 25 years ago when I was driving a car from the early 90s that had the thinner pillars. I keep my head on a swivel while driving, but just as easily I’ve had a car or pedestrian pop up that I don’t see right off the bat in that blind spot, especially turning at an intersection.
- lemmysir@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
Yeah. Some intersections are hard. I go through one daily that has a bike lane with a green light to cross a street while my turn rightinto that street light is also green. That means bikers may be aproaching from behind me at a weird angle, i hate that one. It is a balancing act I guess, safety for the driver and passengers vs visibility. Though nowadays you have all the new tech with sensors and cameras and the car basically yells at you that you’re going to hit something so I guess that is not terrible.
- grue@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
IMO that is sheer incompetence on the part of the traffic engineer who designed it.
- lemmysir@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
I agree, but remaking it is probably too expensive for the town sadly. It has been complained about
- givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Surely driving instructors teach students that it is a blindspot of a sort and that you should keep it in mind, no?
Drivers Ed is a month for a teenager or a handful of lessons…
The only thing I remember from drivers Ed was when another student was told to turn right up ahead, replied “yep” and then just didn’t do it.
When the instructed asked why not, the kid accelerated and said he didn’t want to turn.
Scary as fuck. But everything else I was told decades ago I can’t remember.
And that’s not even getting into how much vehicles have changed in the last couple decades. Especially when the topic involves the continued increase in size in trucks…
You think a boomer remembers what they were told in the 1980s during drivers Ed and will be able to extrapolate the changes to modern vehicles on their own?
Quick edit:
Besides all that, you’re putting a distracted drivers “safety” after hitting a pedestrian in a giant truck over them being able to not hit a pedestrian.
You know what’s safer for a driver? An Abrams tank.
Your line of logic is literally why trucks keep getting bigger and why were in this fucking mess
- lemmysir@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
Different countries i guess. Driving lessons last a while over here, and there is an actual test at the end of it that is very easy to fail. But I understand your point and agree with what you’re saying about the drivers not appreciating the differences between then and now.
- lemmysir@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
Woah, relax. I didn’t mention a thing about careless drivers hitting pedestrians, or trucks. I was just pointing out that airbags overall are good, even if you’re supposed to put a little extra effort while driving.
- givesomefucks@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
This is like if someone said smoking crack in an elementary school is bad…
And you said it’s important for people to relax sometimes.
What you said was fine in isolation, just not in the context of the discussion you wandered into and didn’t understand
- lemmysir@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
Ok. I literally responded to the a-pillar comment, but it’s fine. I don’t wnt to engage further, thnks for your insights.
- Mouselemming@sh.itjust.worksEnglish1 day
Read the room, son! Like, I’m a nonviolent old lady and even I felt a momentary impulse to throw wrenches at blind people. Lotta lemmings with even more impulsivity than me.
I find it frustrating that the same author wrote both of these articles, published one day apart, but made no connections between them.
Edit: I couldn’t read earlier…
- __Lost__@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
What do you mean? The second sentence mentions their previous article
I have no excuses! Thank you for pointing this out. Not sure what my issue was earlier.
- Zarxrax@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
I had thought the same thing. I can only assume the site is farming for clicks.
- thejoker954@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Oversized designs is definitely a big one, but don’t forget subpar training and verification of said training (take a driving test once and your set for life) and of course just overall poor design.
I’ve got a Lincoln mkx and it can be almost impossible to even see out of the windshield on sunny days due to the angle of the windshield catching massive reflections of the dash (like how the hell did that make it past testing)
- jaxxed@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Vw tiguan rear view mirror goes lower than my shoulders, blockng half the front view.
- nyan@lemmy.cafeEnglish1 day
Since the article clearly states that even Canada—where we drive the same vehicles and have some similar infrastructure issues—isn’t showing the same uptick, the most likely reasons are legal/regulatory or cultural rather than physical. In other words, there’s more going on here than just oversized SUVs with bad collision outcomes for pedestrians (although they certainly don’t help).
- 1 day
In Canada our distracted driving laws are pretty harsh and they do actually enforce them. Insurance is also mandatory and a distracted driving ticket is very expensive for a couple of years.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish1 day
Where in Canada are police doing their jobs? Not in Ontario.
Insurance is mandatory…but many are driving without it as some idiot in Ontario got rid of visible licence validation in 2018.
- BCsven@lemmy.caEnglish14 hours
BC. Sometimes the police wait at the stop light about 50 feet up, and walk down the side of the cars to check if you are on your phone while light is red.
- 1 day
I have seen it in Ontario and Quebec. They do it with seatbelt check campaigns. I have never seen it in Toronto though but in Toronto I don’t think you can even get pulled over for a moving violation anyways, unless you are speeding exceptionally fast.
- 1 day
Where are people getting the idea that insurance isn’t mandatory in the US?
- 18 hours
It’s very much mandatory. You’re correct that the US does some bullshit, but that isn’t part of it.
There’s plenty of low hanging fruit. You don’t need to come up with lies in order to punch down.
- ayyy@sh.itjust.worksEnglish19 hours
Florida doesn’t mandate insurance. There’s probably a few other
shitholeRepublican states that are similar and I’m just not aware.
Doesn’t mention anything about infrastructure and I’d guess that has a lot to do with it in the US. Very, very few cities are setup with any type of pedestrian traffic or public transport in mind.
- 11 hours
True. I remember visiting El Paso a decade ago.
There was a starbucks in viewing distance from the hotel but the only way to get there was by car. The fact that taking a short walk to get my morning coffee was not possible seemed absurd.
And this kept happening. Walking anywhere was just not a thing there.
