• calmblue75@lemmy.mlEnglish
    4 months

    My god the comments. You are perfectly allowed to not know much about a country. I don’t know about PRC either. But I know to keep my mouth shut on matters I don’t know about. I don’t go on parroting propaganda for those things.

    • Einskjaldi@lemmy.world
      4 months

      It’s all about geography , if China was on the map like Australia or more like the US they wouldn’t have any problems if they had plenty of space and no neighbors.

      • m532@lemmy.ml
        4 months

        “They shouldn’t have built their country near our military bases”

      • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
        4 months

        You say this as if the US didn’t have problems with it’s neighbours and as if that stopped them from invading and bombing countries abroad. China does none of that bs even by having thrice the amount of border neighbours.

      • calmblue75@lemmy.mlEnglish
        4 months

        Can’t understand what you’re saying. Can you elaborate? The propaganda against China is not coming from its neighbours as far as I know.

        • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
          4 months

          He means the UwU occupied american subjects, Japan SK philippines, who make these statements from time to time to appease their overlord.

        • Einskjaldi@lemmy.world
          4 months

          I was saying it’s just luck of the draw, like the US got a great position that makes it have simple easy borders.

      • KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml
        4 months

        What no political theory does to a mf

        Geographical environment is unquestionably one of the constant and indispensable conditions of development of society and, of course, influences the development of society, accelerates or removed its development. But its influence is not the determining influence, inasmuch as the changes and development of society proceed at an incomparably faster rate than the changes and development of geographical environment. in the space of 3000 years three different social systems have been successively superseded in Europe: the primitive communal system, the slave system and the feudal system. In the eastern part of Europe, in the U.S.S.R., even four social systems have been superseded. Yet during this period geographical conditions in Europe have either not changed at all, or have changed so slightly that geography takes no note of them. And that is quite natural. Changes in geographical environment of any importance require millions of years, whereas a few hundred or a couple of thousand years are enough for even very important changes in the system of human society.

        It follows from this that geographical environment cannot be the chief cause, the determining cause of social development; for that which remains almost unchanged in the course of tens of thousands of years cannot be the chief cause of development of that which undergoes fundamental changes in the course of a few hundred years

  • ليتني كوري شمالي @lemmy.ml
    4 months

    Westerners today have so much in common with their inquisition and crusades predecessors. They replaced Christianity with Western Liberalism and they fight for it with the same zeal. Either you adopt their values and systems or you are an evil heathen who must be destroyed.

  • 52fighters@sopuli.xyz
    4 months

    If, over the next 10 years, your country became more and more like China, would you go along with the changes? Would you have any problems with the transformation?

    • culprit@lemmy.ml
      4 months
      • modern electricity grid quickly moving away from fossil fuels
      • high speed train network
      • cheap fresh produce
      • affordable housing
      • transitioning to socialism via the development of productive forces
      • strong investment in education and R&D
      • quickly advancing tech in almost every sector that matters
      • people-directed governance that is not subservient to capital (foreign or domestic)
      • very low crime
      • ecological restoration that won’t get cancelled by the next elected administration
      • cheap and good quality healthcare
      • bold long term vision and consistent achievement of it over time

      objectively better than just about any other place

      • SoloCritical@lemmy.world
        4 months

        They’ve been around, as a civilization, for over 5,000 years. I’d like to think you don’t make it that long without doing a thing or 2 right.

        • WoodScientist@lemmy.world
          4 months

          Eh. The US has been around just as long as a civilization. If the Chinese get to claim credit for the radically different ancient predecessors to modern China, then the US can claim decent from both the ancient Native American civilizations as well as the ancient Middle Eastern civilizations that are ultimately the predecessors of many countries such as the US.

          • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
            4 months

            The US has been around just as long as a civilization. If the Chinese get to claim credit for the radically different ancient predecessors to modern China, then the US can claim decent from both the ancient Native American civilizations

            The US is a settler colonial project that carried out an extermination campaign and genocide of hundreds of native tribes, and stole their land. Settlers have no right to claim descent from the people (they’re still) trying to exterminate. Unlike South America, there’s not even a genetic heritage; the US colonialist just killed every indigenous person they found, or put them into reservations.

            Neither the PRC nor most ME countries are settler ones. The number of settler-colonial countries is tiny: the US, Canada, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, are the main ones.

      • Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        4 months

        The education is also non-competitive and crippling for the not-so-gifted students, yes?

        Because I don’t hear about many student suicides (specifically due to stress and pressure) outside of the Asian countries.

  • AnarchoSnowPlow@midwest.social
    4 months

    All states are bad, but if we’re talking about which ones are arguably better or worse on the world stage…

    “USA USA USA, WE’RE NUMBER 1!”

    Proudly colonizing for 250 years?

    • architect@thelemmy.club
      4 months

      Seems to be what people do. America isn’t the first or the only one. People are shit is that your argument?

      • m532@lemmy.ml
        4 months

        “All people are colonizers. Those who aren’t colonizing aren’t people” - colonizer brain in action.

      • MousePotatoDoesStuff@lemmy.world
        4 months

        That’s actually a statistical error.

        Most people are alright. Power-hungry individuals responsible for colonialism are outliers and should not have been counted (or allowed to reach/stay in positions of power)

  • Two_Hangmen@midwest.social
    4 months

    It’s possible to simultaneously think there are issues with the Chinese government and U.S. government.  You could mention 3 June 1989 I’m China or Epstein files in the U.S.

  • mlg@lemmy.worldEnglish
    4 months

    Its like comparing the Federation and the Empire from elite dangerous lol.

    Empire elitists always talking about how bad the Federation is because of the insane capitalist abuse of power, and billions of humans subjected to horrific conditions.

    And then Federation liberals talking about how the Empire literally has legalized slavery and a monarchy that runs on the death of humans.

    Although technically there’s also the stereotypical Asian CEO who has a 15% discount on all ships and modules in his systems, so I guess that’s probably the successor to Ali Express lol.

    That all being said, the post above this is an article trying to explain how China plating 78 billion trees was a bad idea lmao.

    • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
      4 months

      “China is actually not hell on earth”

      “You’re just brainwashed, everyone there is actually dead”

      Removed by mod

    • iByteABit@lemmy.ml
      4 months

      Aah yes unlike never authoritarian capitalist governments that totally don’t break in your house to throw you in the cold bitter streets to die because you couldn’t afford rent and made the property “unprofitable”. The West has no right lecturing anyone over human rights and liberty, they could just discard them from their dictionary if only it didn’t serve as great propaganda against their class enemies.

        • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          That’s because a state is itself an instrument of class warfare first and foremost. In some places the rich wield the state against the people, and in other places the people wield the state against the rich.

    • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
      4 months

      Define authoritarian. The PRC spent decades of anti-colonial struggle defeating British imperialists, Japanese imperialists, feudal reactionaries, and then US imperialists. Do you know more than them about how to defeat vicious empires, “non-authoritarianly”?

      • 小莱卡@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
        4 months

        they should’ve just prayed and cattered to the imperialists like India.

        As malcolm x once said “The West doesn’t not have any love for China but it respects it, while they love India but they do not respect it.”

        These very same jerks would love China if it was just another uwu Japan/SKorea hosting US troops.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
      4 months

      The working classes use state authority for pro-social policy and to prebent capitalists from gaining political power, as opposed to capitalist authority for pro-profit policy and to prevent the working classes from gaining political power. Authority has a class dynamic, analysis without class erases the core distinction.

    • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
      4 months

      “Simping” here meaning “viewing with anything less than total antipathy”

            • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              No just one out of every 14 people, which you may notice is many thousands of times more democratic than any of the western so-called democracies by percentage.

              • GirthBrooksPLO@lemmy.world
                4 months

                So 13 out of 14 people do not belong to the only political coalition (the 8 parties with 700,000 members total don’t really count as “opposition parties”) that is legally allowed in their country?

                In reference to my original post, we agree that authoritarianism is bad and you are arguing the case that China and the CCP is not authoritarian, correct?

                • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
                  4 months

                  They seem to be doing a pretty good job

                  we agree that authoritarianism is bad

                  No. We disagree that “authoritarianism” is a meaningful distinction when every government exists by authority. Might as well call it “badguyism”

            • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
              4 months

              So then every country is authoritarian, because no country is controlled by a party that every citizen is a member of.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              The communist party is a working class party. What exactly do you think the purpose of a party is? And what do you think class is? You seem confused on each.

          • GirthBrooksPLO@lemmy.world
            4 months

            A state the exists as a servant to a citizenry that is not limited to class or ethnicity. A state served as a safeguard to the human rights of all humans within its sovereignty.

            It also serves as a mechanism to efficiently direct resources to human advancement as basic needs are automated.

            • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              I meant like can you give an example of one

              Also:

              It also serves as a mechanism to efficiently direct resources to human advancement as basic needs are automated.

              So like China

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
                  4 months

                  Jesus, at this point why don’t you just admit that by “non-authoritarian” you just mean “white”.

                • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
                  4 months

                  Finland? Where despite years of protest by the people, the state continues to buy Israeli weapons and cooperate with the zionist entity in the development of military tech and spyware? The state currently ignoring the very clear wishes of it’s people in order to aid and abet a historically unpopular genocide?

                • 秦始皇帝@lemmy.ml
                  4 months

                  The country that was a Nazi ally and didn’t drop the swastika from their air force insignia until 2025? Finland the country currently implementing mass austerity while giving tax cuts to the rich? That Finland?

            • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              You just described the PRC, and notably not capitalist dictatorships, whose governments don’t represent their people / working class, but the interests of capitalists only.

              You desperately need to get past this poli-sci-intro-level understanding of what states are. States are organizations of force for one class (meaning in Marxism their relationship to production) to oppress another. The USA and other liberal countries are capitalist dictatorships over workers, while the PRC is a worker’s dictatorship over capital.

              Here are some resources:

    • Internetexplorer@lemmy.world
      4 months

      Lol America, land of the free, they literally arrested anyone who said they were a communist and confiscated your gold because they said it was illegal.

      Yet China is frowned upon.

        • m532@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          But which countries are not authoritarian, and why?

        • WoodScientist@lemmy.world
          4 months

          These things exist in degrees.

          Fuck Donald J Trump. I hope the rat bastard dies shitting himself inside out.

          Try talking like that about Xi on Chinese social media.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              Liberals believe hating something is critique. That’s why they claim Lemmy.ml bans people for “criticizing” socialist countries, when in reality their “critique” is just saying “fuck xyz.”

              • calmblue75@lemmy.mlEnglish
                4 months

                Mostly their critique, as you said, is just plain insulting. Often it is not to an ideology or a system, but a person or people. Like the person above just insulted not the US, not capitalism, not western imperialism, but Trump, a single person. What is even the point?

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
                  4 months

                  It’s the type of unseriousness that results from not engaging with real political activism, and not engaging with socialist theory.

    • Internetexplorer@lemmy.world
      4 months

      Because America are the thoughtful, non violent democrats, who represent the people, and never start illegal wars?

    • 秦始皇帝@lemmy.ml
      4 months

      authoritarians

      Thought terminating cliche used by the unintelligent and uninformed to avoid reckoning with reality beyond vibes.

      • GirthBrooksPLO@lemmy.world
        4 months

        “non authoritarian governments are known to implement mass firewalls and online surveillance”

        • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          Literally every government with the capability to control information is doing that, and frankly the rise of bleach-injecting covid denialist flat earth tradwife inflluencers has proven China right to do so.

          • GirthBrooksPLO@lemmy.world
            4 months

            From Merriam-Webster

            " of authoritarian

            1 relating to, or favoring blind submission to [authority].

            2 relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people

            • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              So like, objectively not China? Because their ruling party consists of 90 million members and they’re constantly debating shit, and enjoy an incredibly high satisfaction rate among non-party members?

                • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
                  4 months

                  Yes, of course they could. Individual people make the decision to practice birth control every day, and a vast democratic assembly of millions voted in by their peers can make that decision as well. Meanwhile in the US, reproductive policy is dictated by nine unelected ministers: an objectively far less democratic process, yet our media never describes the US government as “authoritarian.” Because it’s not a term meant to usefully delineate important differences in form and function, it’s a vibes based epithet meant to be wielded against geopolitical enemies of capitalism. It’s a thought-terminating cliche, deployed highly selectively against anti-imperialist societies to artificially cast proletarian authority as uniquely evil while tacticly normalizing the authority of billionaires and corporations.

                  In practice, authoritarianism is when you are objectively more democratic in function and policy than western countries, but commit the cardinal sin of using that authority to safeguard your sovereignty, people and resources from the inhumanity of global capitalism.

            • Gold_E_Lox@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
              4 months

              i love that it has the caveat in the second definition abt a constitution. like, no guys, totslly not us, look at this definition we created to show how we arent authoritarian

        • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          Every country should be blocking the US surveillance giants, its extremely naive for countries to be letting facebook, twitter, reddit, and google operate unhindered.

          There’ no such thing as a “non-authoritarian” state or other myths like the tooth-fairy, but even if they existed, then it’d be hard to argue that letting the US surveillance state operate freely within your borders is somehow “non-authoritarian”. The US is more likely than any other country to use the intelligence they’ve gained learned to harm you physically. See the Phoenix Program.

        • 秦始皇帝@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          You clearly don’t understand the purpose of the firewall and the online surveillance is no more than any other country but at least our government is accountable to us as opposed to owned by capital.

            • 秦始皇帝@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              To us. There’s a reason that even from Harvard’s research the government has a 95+% approval.

              Direct elections reach the township and county levels where voters choose deputies to local people’s congresses. These grassroots deputies constitute the overwhelming majority of all deputies nationwide. Advancement to higher levels requires proven service at lower rungs, ensuring every national deputy has worked up from local material conditions and remains accountable to the masses below.

              Grassroots legislative liaison stations and community consultation channels ensure mass input shapes policy at every stage, making democracy a daily practice not a periodic (meaningless) ritual. Whole-process people’s democracy embeds consultation and pilot programs into governance: policies are tested locally, refined through mass feedback, then scaled nationally. This grounds decisions in what we want and need.

              All 55 ethnic minorities hold guaranteed representation in the NPC. Farmers and labourers comprise roughly 15% of deputies while professionals and technical personnel make up the remainder.

              Even besides all that if you just look at what the Chinese government does as opposed to those owned by capital. Mass poverty alleviation, anticorruption at all levels, massive investment in socially profitable but monetarily unprofitable public services, deflating the housing bubble. These are not the actions of a government only looking out for a select few.

              And also the CPC has over 100million members since 2024 that 1 in 14 people are party members not to mind those who aren’t but are active in consulting due to their position such as most engineers and scientists.

              • GirthBrooksPLO@lemmy.world
                4 months

                You should be skeptical of any poll or survey that presents that level of agreement on anything with that breadth of societal implications.

                How do you square the whole Hong Kong protests in regards to the extradition laws? Or the aggression towards Taiwan?

                • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
                  4 months

                  Just because the anglosphere is a socioeconomic nightmare realm of genocide, immiseration and omnipresent propaganda where everyone is at each other’s throats doesn’t mean everywhere else is too.

                  What you’re saying is you want to be suspicious of data that paints other places in a better light than us, because it makes you feel bad. You then rationalize this desire as “wisdom” while continuing to apply it selectively against societies your government has told you to hate.

    • square@lemmy.zip
      4 months

      They’re not even against capitalism. They only pay lip service to anti-capitalism.

    • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
      4 months

      You are doing genocide denial when you claim that genocide can happen without being accompanied by mass death. Genocide is the crime of crimes because it always involves mass slaughter of innocent people, to bring about their end. The invention of “”“cultural genocide”“” without any of the accompanying mass violence effectively whitewashes genocide as a concept.

      • -☆-@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
        4 months

        I’m genuinely undereducated here, not an op…

        Accepting all that, that’s still essentially colonization, no?

        Is there nuance I’m missing here? China’s seemingly codified cultural repression genuinely makes it hard for me to consider supporting them, whether or not they advance the cause of the average worker

        • orc girly@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          They also don’t do cultural genocide, look at videos of random tourists visiting Xinjiang and you’ll see some locals speaking Uyghur, you’ll see mosques, museums, traditional Uyghur food, etc. The previous repression was meant to curve terrorism, it seems to have worked, and things have relaxed afterwards. I don’t see how any of this fits the picture of colonialism.

          • architect@thelemmy.club
            4 months

            Meant to curb terrorism. Lol. Sure.

            We weren’t all born yesterday. We’ve heard all this before.

        • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          When we look at how colonization in the real world happens we see it is accomplished, again, through mass death.

          See: Israel

          • -☆-@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
            4 months

            I largely agree, though Israel has used many nonlethal methods for a long time. There is a lot of violence involved in the process that doesn’t require death. Forced relocation is a pretty classic tactic, for example, which Israe has made ample use of in their ongoing genocide

      • AnalogHole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        4 months

        Lol bro over here trying to downplay the horrific treatment of a whole people and claim everyone else is the problem 😂

        • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          Downplay what? A reeducation/deradicalization program isn’t fucking genocide on its own, it has to be accompanied by mass death, and when you say it is you are the one that’s donwplaying the crime of genocide as a concept. Even the boarding schools they used in the genocide in North America had mass graves, because genocide is always accompanied by mass death and to claim otherwise is whitewashing.

          It’s the crime of crimes because it’s the worst violence that can be inflicted on a group.

      • pineapple@lemmy.mlEnglish
        4 months

        I suppose apartheid can be used instead of cultural genocide.

        • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          China isn’t preventing or discouraging intermarrying or intermixing with Uighurs, which is a key feature of apartheid. Neither do they have to use separate lanes of the road, carry special IDs marking their ethnicity, or forced to use different emergency shelters.

          I use those examples because the real-world example of apartheid, Israel, is currently doing all of those things today.

    • jankforlife@lemmy.ml
      4 months

      Lol lets worry about a CIA fake genocide op instead of the real ones happening like in Gaza amiright fellow zionazis? 😂

  • Dippy@beehaw.org
    4 months

    If you can find me a governance representing more than 100 million people that is genuinely good, with no ifs ands or buts about it, I can prove that you are the brainwashed one.

      • architect@thelemmy.club
        4 months

        Hmm, must be an llm, they never said the word perfect. They never said anything had to be perfect.

        How does that feel?

        • 秦始皇帝@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          Well kind of funny because it’s not at all comparable to what you’re trying to compare it to. Also I never called anyone an llm I asked if they used it as it left an artefact.

      • Dippy@beehaw.org
        4 months

        I need it to stop doing evil things first. I am all for reducing the evil, less evil is always great and ill always vote for a lesser evil. But dont expect me to a government structure good if it is still doing evil things. Ill call a politician good if they want to decrease the evil. But I will not call a country good if its still evil.

        • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          It’s wild to me that grown adults still use “good” and “evil” as an actual heuristic

            • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
              4 months

              It’s a useless heuristic, because it’s a fuckin magical metaphysical one. If you’re not a christian who believes in a spirit world, then stop letting the church define reality for you. Good and evil as concepts have no more valence on physical reality than karma or sin, and have no power to explain why things happen.

              Children think in good and evil. Adults think in cause and effect. Be scientific.

              • Dippy@beehaw.org
                4 months

                Does River think their special for calling an unspecified murder a cause and effect instead of an evil? I dont think in a Christian way. I still think its fucking normal to call shit evil instead of explaining how the effects of murder are painful for the following litany of reasons

              • RiverRock@lemmy.ml
                4 months

                That’s right, we’re everywhere and we’re coming for you👻

                • 9skyguy0@lemmy.ml
                  4 months

                  If anything, done by people like them. A ML user posted this in ML itself, some of the folks from other instances come in with bad faith and/or bullcrap arguments, other ML users come in to defend and debunk, and we’re apparently the ones brigading in our own space.

        • EmmiLime@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          I have a question, what is your opinion on lesser evil? Is America the lesser evil in your opinion?

          • Dippy@beehaw.org
            4 months

            America is evil. There are politicians who are lesser evils within the usa. They dont make the US not evil, just less evil.

            I don’t know individual politicians in china, but im sure there are plenty of lesser evil politicians there. That doesnt mean china isnt also doing evil things. I hope the evil reduces there. And in the usa. And everywhere else.

        • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
          4 months

          Ok. So all you’ve done is come up with a definition that means every country is evil, making it pointless to even talk about.

        • fermionsnotbosons@lemmy.ml
          4 months

          Awww, baby’s first analysis! Do the good guys wear the white hats (and the bad guys the black hats) so you know exactly who they are?

          Good grief. You presumably have a brain, please try and use it. This is no way to have an adult conversation.

          • Dippy@beehaw.org
            4 months

            The world is super complicated and nuanced and im sick of people pretending that china is this bastion of good governance and im sick of people pretending that Harris would have been just as bad as trump. If you cant get on board with that, block me

              • Dippy@beehaw.org
                4 months

                Trump accelerated the genocide 1000 fold. I didnt sell out for shit, I was trying to save lives.